The Quakers (2-10, 0-1 Big 5) have dropped five straight as they head into their second Big 5 game of the year. Penn is coming off a 70-57 loss to No. 17 Butler, while La Salle (9-3, 1-0) recently fell to Miami, 76-59. Follow all the action here:
The Quakers (2-10, 0-1 Big 5) have dropped five straight as they head into their second Big 5 game of the year. Penn is coming off a 70-57 loss to No. 17 Butler, while La Salle (9-3, 1-0) recently fell to Miami, 76-59. Follow all the action here:
La Salle wins, 74-57. That's a 17 point difference. The line was 18.
The oddsmakers in Vegas are quite good
Penn Men's Basketball is quite bad.
And you're quite annoying (let me take that back, really annoying with no life)
You're both right.
@Penn Fan
Thank you for the contribution.
Please tell me how you somehow can disagree with the assessment that Penn MBB is NOT quite bad. Sorry if you find that comment "annoying". If anything, it is "accurate" .
FOJL
I still find FOJL to be arrogant and offensive, but he is correct about the state of the team.
Arthur
Art
Thank you for the contribution and the feedback.
Sorry you feel that way about me, but I merely want the best for Penn. What we are seeing these days is quite poor and reflects accordingly on the Director of Athletics as he is repsonsible for the Product.
And speaking of contributions, another week passes with no participation and feedback from former DP Ace, Jonothon Tannenwald. He continues to refrain from being a part of this conversation and dialogue, and chooses to be callously hide behind his twitter feed. He can do better. He has done so in the past. Perhaps now his ego is taking some of his skills away from the rest of us, which is rather disappointing.
I hate to be partisan here: FOJL and I got off to a tense start...but over time, I came to appreciate his indefatigable and imperturbable nature.
FOJL may be mysterious, but his posts are honest and unsparing; he's also the most consistent, reliable contributor to the blog since its genesis, for which reason alone he is a first-ballot hall of fame "the buzz" blogger.
Having said that, it's tough to stomach the state of the program as we write. 2-11? Even with Zack, Belcore and Howlett's departures, this is admittedly tough to take.
Let us hope the corner turn is impending? On what basis, I wish I could be more sanguine.
Steve B,
Tomorrow's night game is critical for the team's confidence, I think, especially given that the game is at home and against an equal or lesser opponent with a losing record. Maybe we can put it all together then, we'll see. Sure would help to have Fran Doc there, however.
I still think the parts are there for future success (with more parts coming), but they haven't meshed yet, and this is sure tougher than I (and, I suspect, most of us) expected.
My only issue with FOJL is that his criticisms sometimes delve into the personal area, which is uncalled for and unnecessary. I will take him at his word that he wants the best for Penn; I just don't always like his modus operandi.
Where is Ernie N.? Ernie - are you out there? Where have you been throughout all this mess? Hope all of this losing hasn't driven you underground. Remember from "Three and Out" that 'losing big' is only the first stage in getting to 'winning big.' (See, I finally read the book).
Ted -
Happy New Year (and to all). I'm happy you read "Three and Out" and trust you agree it's a worthwhile book for any sports fan interested in the elements required for a successful (or missing in an unsuccessful) program.
I've been here for all of this, but haven't weighed in as it felt like piling on. So I've taken your and others counsel for patience and the turn-around when the Ivy season begins. One observation, the goal posts keep shifting for expectations re JA and the program. Recall:
1) Wait for Jerome to coach a full season.
2) Wait for Jerome's first recruiting class.
3) Wait 3 years, it took Sydney Johnson that long.
4) Wait till the Ivy season begins.
5) Recently there have been calls for waiting 5 years.
I'm doing #4 and look forward to sharing Palestra wine with you prior to the Columbia game in NYC.
The goalposts seem to be shifting on both sides of the equation. I seem to recall folks being rather pleased (though not satisfied of course, having not won a championship) with the progress and improvement over the last couple seasons. Obviously one has to look at the entire trend, rather than just individual data points. The question is: is what we're seeing now part of an upward trend or a downward one? I'm inclined to think it's part of the former.
Good to see the regulars back here and contributing.
Steven B -- Thank you for the kind words. You are on the mark. I only want what is best for the school and in this context, our struggling MBB program.
Ted - I do appreciate the feedback and candor. I have no axes to grind (ATG) with anyone. However, certain things must be called out and I dont hold anything back. See historical comments about the Director of Athletics, certain members of the DP staff, and other concerned parties.
Regarding MBB -- I think the ship needs to be righted. Patience is a virtue but we must see improvement. The last 6 weeks have been a complete disaster. The schedule does become more favorable, lets hope the rest cooperates
Trends vs Expectations
While trends are an essential tracking tool, by themselves they are not definitive - ask Rasmussen, Gallup, and Pew. For example, if a recent trend is interpreted as "upward", how powerful is that trend, and what is its upper limit? Will that trend reach the expected goal?
Amid all the conversation I confess to being no longer certain what the expectations are for Penn BB. Not too long ago I knew!
I'm not so sure it's reasonable to "expect" Penn to return, ever, to its dynastic status as an Ivy basketball power. And, incidentally, why "should" it? Of course we'd like to see that happen. But to "expect" the program to sustain the level of relative dominance it enjoyed for decades, for more than half a century, is perhaps just unrealistic.
More realistic is to want the program to field a competitive team that, annually, is a legitimate contender for the Ivy crown, will win its share of Ivy crowns over the years, and will acquit itself with dignity against the non-conference mid-majors with the capacity, from time to time, to give a good scare against a top-50 team.
To achieve even this level of ongoing competitiveness, in the current hyper-competitive collegiate climate, will require some really good, consistent recruiting and terrific coaching of the recruitable talent.
But I think we may just have to grieve the reality that Penn is neither positioned to be, nor necessarily "should" it be positioned, to dominate the Ivies for the next 50 years. Perhaps it's enough to aspire to compete on a yearly basis with the better Ivy clubs, win our share of titles and earn the right on a periodic basis to get our asses kicked in the NCAA's by a high-seed powerhouse.
Sure, a miraculous win here and there during the season or, less probably, even the "post-season," is still something to dream about, and who's to say it won't happen, and when?The prospect even of miraculous seasons, now and then, still lies ahead.
But still, maybe it's time to retire the notion (the sense of "entitlement") of the program going forward as (based on history) somehow "anointed," such that less than its ongoing Ivy League dominance becomes a source of mass misery, discontent and disappointment.
We are going through a very tough phase; the program will see its ups and downs over many long years ahead. The jury is still deliberating on the Jerome Allen regime. The verdict on this regime remains uncertain. We will know more on that in the next two years.
@Steve Becker -
I've rarely if ever argued or disagreed with your views. If the future projected in your 5:18 post is the reality, it's depressing. While it's very likely realistic, I wonder if that is now the prevailing expectation? If so, I wonder if it's worth pursuing.
Ernie,
Happy New Year to you too, and welcome back! Glad that all is well. Thanks for recommending "3 and Out" - it was even better than I thought it would be - a very well written book, that I couldn't put down.
Sorry for the belated response, but I got back late from the Penn game last night. A disappointing loss, no doubt, but I find myself surprisingly still looking forward to the Princeton game on Saturday. Even with the 2-12 record, I still prefer watching this team to the awful Miller teams of 2007 - 09. Based on what I saw last night, there is still reason for hope. There is a quickness and athleticism to this team which I have not seen for a long, long time. They have not put it together yet, and they are exasperating, but Hicks, Greg Louis and DNH look like real potential stars for the future. And the emergence of Dau Jok has been a true delight to see. He could become a true leader on this team; he is playing now with a calmness and confidence that is almost shocking. I hope it continues.
As for Steve Becker's comments on the long term outlook for the program, I don't know what was more depressing, his comments on it, or your response to him. I don't think anyone ever really thought Penn is "entitiled" to the Ivy BB championship every year, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be strived for and/or expected. I'm with you that we shouldn't be satisfied with just "competing" every year, and win some championships once in a while. Indeed, we should be looking to (re) build the dynasty, and I don't think it's unrealistic to try to do so, assuming the proper support is given from the administration, and given the history, facility, resources, and the geographic (BB) area in which Penn is located. I for one, expect an Ivy football championship every year. I know it doesn't always happen, but coach Bagnoli has raised the level of expectations with his great record of success. FB is a different level of competion, I know (being 1-AA, not 1A), but we should have equivalent expectations for the BB teas as well. I agree with you - otherwise, what's the point? I know we're not going the final 4 anytime again soon, but we certainly can get back to the mid 1990's and early 2000's, if everyone's pulling in the same direction.
As for Jerome and the patience meter, I want to see an Ivy championship next year. It appears that the talent is there to do just that, after a year of experience and ssuming everyone stays healthy.
Are you still at the same email address? I will keep you posted re the Columbia game on 2/23.
Go Quakers!
Ted -
What is really depressing is the lack of visible intensity of commitment to Penn sports from Penn's leadership - read AG and trustees. It is past time to simply point to Penn Park and the Weiss Pavilion as rebuttal. I fear BB and FB are going the way of the rest of the program's once great teams becoming largely irrelevant vis Ivy peers.
I include FB because this past season could easily be called the "Ivy shoot in the foot season". Note: Harvard's tanking against Princeton in 4th qtr, and not showing up at Franklin Field. Brown's critical penalties at FF, Princeton 4th qtr. misplays, plus Dartmouth, Columbia, and Cornell similar misplays prevented our losing them all. And we shot ourselves against Yale. It is testament to Coach Bagnoli that we were Ivy champs, when we could have gone 0-7. Next year??
Our Ivy competitors have stepped up in multiple sports while Penn hasn't. It is likely the money is simply not there to do so. I hope your optimism re this year's BB team proves right, beginning this Saturday against Princeton. Hope to see you in NYC for Palestra wine prior to Columbia game.
ernie@catalyticgroup.com