DPOSTM Ivy Hoops Power Rankings: Nov. 28

27 thoughts on “DPOSTM Ivy Hoops Power Rankings: Nov. 28

  1. Completely accurate given the putrid performance so far in 2012-2013. Thank goodness for Dartmouth's historical ineptitude, otherwise we would deserve to be in last.

    Plenty of work to do here.

  2. Is this list based just on number of wins? I don't disagree with the bottom 4, since there's barely anything to work with (unless you want to go into quality of losses, which I don't think really matters), but the top 4 could use some revision. I do agree that Columbia gets the top spot for their win over Villanova (even in a down year for them), but I don't think Cornell needs our congratulations for beating two of the worst teams in the country. For 2–4, I'd have Princeton, Harvard, and then Cornell.

    Also, I know you're trying to say that IPFW is a no-name school, but there's no pride in not knowing what it means. You're not running for governor of Alaska.

  3. During the post Lehigh conversation "Jamie" pointed to the rankings of the past 2 incoming classes as #2 two years ago and #1 this year as basis for hope and patience. Based on the above power rankings wouldn't it be fair to ask for some meaningful evidence of those rankings showing up by now?

    I've signed on to a bit more patience, but continue to be concerned those incoming class evals might have been made by Rasmussen or worse Dick Morris!

  4. While an overall assessment of a recruiting class probably doesn't really work until they graduate, there are some things we can learn about classes before then. We can say that we don't have any instant superstar players from either this year or last. We know how much they weigh and how tall they are. We know what numbers they wear when they don't have any open wounds. Other than those, especially because of the limited minutes last season, I don't think it makes much sense to say that either class has been terrible, bad, or even mediocre.

    With regard to the weekly rankings, has anyone else's recruiting class (either this year or last) affected their position on the list? Maybe Harvard?

  5. the #1 ivy league ranked BB team and slayer of the great Big 5 hope Villanova Wildcats lost to LIU Brooklyn by 9 tonight. The 2 team lost to Stony Brook by 23. the number 4 team lost to a very pedestrian Wagner team (but in OT!). Hmmm...sounds like a down year for both the Ivy and Big 5. I will tell you that the turning point for Jerome Allen's Quaker teams as a player seemed to me to be an upset victory over Penn State in Fran Dunphy's second year as coach. Bring on the Nittany Lions.

  6. Ernie,

    Ibby was great, but if I recall correctly, he did not have an immediate impact in his freshman year. I believe that Mark Zoller had the best freshman year, out of all the players in that class (Zoller, Jaaber, Danley, etc.).
    Also, Ibby arrived in 2003, which was after Ugonna (1999-2003).

    Loved Ibby as a player - he got better and better every year, and I don't think we ever had a quicker Quaker - except maybe Ira Bowman. We could sure use him now.. Certainly one of the most electrifying players to ever wear the Red & Blue, I agree on that!

  7. Ernie,

    Does Nate Silver evaluate recruiting classes? His predictions appear to be the most accurate, these days..
    (at least they did with regard to elections). Maybe we could get a truer picture from him!

  8. Quaker 93,

    Jerome Allen arrived in Fran Dunphy's 3rd year as Penn's coach (1991-92). I remember the Penn State game that year (which the refs tried to steal from the Quakers - the game actually had 2 "endings"); but to me, the turnaround of Penn's fortunes in that "era" began in the game with LaSalle in January of that year, which was played at the Spectrum, in the 2nd game of an all-Big Five doubleheader. Jerome took over the game in the 2nd half, and the Quakers never looked back for the next 3 1/2 years.

  9. sounds like there have been 2 definite and another 2 possible instant all-stars in the last 22 years. we have 11 titles in those 22 years. my point is in that time there are alot of tim krugs, lashawn trice, matt langel, micheal jordans, paul romanchik(sp?), jed ryans, Eric Osmundson, Steve Danley, Koko archibong, (its a long list) of guys who didn't light it up as freshman but turned out to be REALLY good players...patience.

  10. Ted - I agree with all your comments re Ibby, including about his freshman year. But even then there was no mistaking his electricity! Re Nate Silver, I haven't seen him around Penn BB very often. If I may continue the metaphor, the past several years we've been hearing Dick Morris type hype re incoming classes, with to date regrettably similar results.

    Jamie - Your "instant-all star" case is (respectfully) a straw man argument, and the opposite of disarming. No one has suggested instant all-star players as the baseline. I'll defer to your and Ted's greater granular knowledge of BB's intricacies. But on a broader level it has appeared for a long time Penn has lacked players who can shoot open 3s and rebound. That talent tends to be observable even to the likes of me, and when it hasn't been seen for several years, it is legitimate to question recruiting.

    If Matt Maloney represents instant all star shooter and a rare talent, Matt Langel, a fine shooter and All Ivy player, should be the gettable standard. There hasn't been anyone close, not even Ibby or Zack Rosen - which may explain their pro experiences to date.

    FOJL and I have observed last year's success was testament to Zack Rosen's presence and play, rather than proof positive that JA had us on track to restore the Penn BB program and brand vis our Ivy competitors. In that context calls for more patience given this season's results to date smacks more Dick Morris than Nate Silver. It also feeds into JA's getting a pass perceptions.

  11. I just don't understand how you can judge the past 2 classes when it seems like you guys haven't seen the players enough. If you don't think tony hicks is a legitimate scorer at a mid major level you probably haven't seen him play enough. You'll all love him in 15 months and say what a stud he is. if you don't think darien has the potential to be one of the most dominate big men Penn has ever had you just haven't seen him enough. Jamal will probably be the best point guard in the league his jr and sr seasons. I understand that you guys haven't seen them but if you want to really judge the classes 2 yrs in then you're really not judging it based on anything yet. Fortunately i have been able to see most of both classes on the AAU circuit to see their 'talent' level. I can see how you can judge the freshman at all none of you guys have seen them other than the minutes they played this year. If you're not turning around a program team's don't play this many young kids. I imagine all of you would consider Steve Donahue a very coach, yes? look at what he's doing at BC it EXACTLY what jerome is doing here. He lost a ton of games last year because he played freshman and sophomores this year is more of the same he has 12 freshman and sophomores 1 jr 1 sr. Thats how you turn a program around look at every coach thats done it right.

    matt maloney came was a transfer he wasn't someone we recruited his father suggested Penn to him after Vandy wasn't working out for him. Same for ira his coach at seton hall prep recommended penn when Providence wasn't working out.

    the argument that Zack is the reason that we won last year in spite of Jerome is a little bit shallow. watch some game film and see how severely out talented we were even compared to brown, columbia, harvard, princeton, yale but we won with less talent only because of Zack? last i checked Zack could only play 1 position there are 4 penn players on the court. In reality jerome maxed that team out. Rank the Ivy teams last year based on talent and let me know where Penn ranks and give me fact because I do know every other schools personel so you gonna have to better than vagaries in that regard. The shot at jerome and this years team is getting old they are young they make a lot of mistakes thats what happens with youth...

  12. to get a nate silver type of analysis you gotta do your home work go to a practice or two watch them play AAU and over the summer when they are at Penn. If you do that you would see how zack was average his first two years and why he got really good his last two. If you get a chance ask him about it he'll tell what changed for him.

  13. Jamie,

    Who are you including in the "You Guys?" I thought I was pretty clear that I'm with you in the "have patience" group.

    I think Ernie's correct about some recent recruits (mostly Miller's) being over-hyped, but as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on this class. You have obviously done your homework, so I'm staying optimistic for now.

    Ernie,

    Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not sure that my granular BB knowledge is any greater than yours.

  14. Accepting the Jamie stat that we've won 11 titles in 22 years; and deducting the last won by Miller, that would make the Dunphy program record 10 titles in 16 years. That is the program's heritage, context, and standard many of us use for our evals of the program's performance the past 6 seasons.

    Yes, the Dunphy program was undeniably shattered; and another context is the assurance given for its rebuilding and expectations set at the time JA's selection was announced and introduced. Sorry, but two standards haven't been met. At the end of JA's initial 1/2 season, the word was put out of some late great gets - one who could shoot, but who is now no longer on the team - and that's this year's Junior class. If last year's team had a talent deficit - notwithstanding that class, who were Sophomores + #2 ranked Freshman class + Zack + Seniors whose loss was felt this year - either all that talent wasn't all it was touted at convenient times to be, or the team wasn't as talent deficit as Jamie implies in making the case for JA's coaching performance last season.

    It is surely true you've seen the players far more than we have, who've only seen their Penn performance this season. Does that imply we have forfeited our right to evaluate based on team performance and results? One could equally make the case - I'm not making it - that you've seen the players so much that you may have lost a modicum of objectivity.

    It may be true we can't appreciate the potential of this year's Freshman, granted; but why are the Sophomores and especially the Juniors still unknown quantity? If the inherent talent has been there, why hasn't it shown against the weak teams we've faced to date?

    Why are we continuing to be out-rebounded, and who are the consistent outside shooters? If they are in the Sophomore and Junior classes, shouldn't they have improved each year? Other than "Doc" I'm sorry to say, I haven't noticed the improvements that should come as a matter of course. What am I missing, other than the patience that I've already signed on to? BTW - In your book does that mean I can't be circumspect in the mean time?

  15. Ernie,
    Your points are well taken; I'll let Jamie respond to them, but I have couple of points:
    1) Fran Dunphy did not win an Ivy championship until his 4th year as Penn's coach. In fact, his 2nd year record (9-17) was worse than his first (12-14), and he is on record as saying that he thought he was going to be fired after that 2nd year. Even with Jerome arriving in year # 3, and with a supporting cast of Barry Pierce, Eric Moore, Shawn Trice, Paul Chambers, etc., Dunphy's team only finished 3rd in the Ivy, with a 16-10 overall record. Comparing season records only, Jerome's teams arguably made even more dramatic improvement, going from 6-22 (including Miller's 0-7) in his first year, to winning the "magic #" 20 games and coming close to a championship, in only his 2nd full season as coach.

    2) I could be way off base here, but the current junior class (Cartwright, Doherty, etc.) may have been initially recruited by Miller, and Jerome's part in their coming to Penn may have been to "close the deal." If I am wrong on that, I will humbly acknowledge that.

    3) As for the current soph class, no one has really stepped up yet, but I heard names like Michael Jordan and Matt Langel

  16. (Sorry, hit the "send" button prematurely) - anyway, MJ and Matt Langel didn't sit the world on fire in their first year together either. If memory serves, it took them well into their soph years until things really started to jell, and they finally won their Ivy championships in their junior and senior seasons.

    4) Finally, all of Dunphy's teams, good and bad, always had SOME senior leadership (if not senior talent), which is extremely important. Players like Vince Curran, and even Conor Turley, play a very important role. This current team has NO ONE like that, talent or no talent, to calm things down when needed.

    So, once again, I'm choosing to be patient - for now...

  17. not lumping everyone together Ted I was just responding to Ernie's post. I'm pretty much done not much I'm going to be able to say to make anyone see a different side of this process. just let it play out and talk about it at the end...

  18. Jamie - You used the word "process", a particular hot button for me. Whether in business, sports, and in many aspects of life, the process fascinates me as much as the enjoyment of the results. That's where I am coming from vis Penn sports in general, and the BB program in this case.

    I loved the JA years, his personal story, and wish the very best for his coaching success - and in the process the program's restoration to its historic place: if not atop the league every year, at minimum being the path through which others pass for the title.

    There are some important issues within JA's control, and others well beyond; I trust you will accept that I know the difference. Nor do I ask that you agree with my views, but only that their intent is to give a fair reflection, given where I sit.

  19. I understand your view and you have many valid points I'm just am not comfortable judging effectiveness of players on such a small sample. the only players we know anything about really are miles, doc and brooks everyone else doesn't even have 1/4 of seasons worth of experience.

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