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M. Hoops vs. Drexel live blog

Hey everyone, this is Ari Seifter coming to you with live game updates from the men's basketball game against Drexel.

This entry was posted on Tuesday, November 24th, 2009 at 7:54 pm and is filed under Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

29 Responses to “M. Hoops vs. Drexel live blog”

Kevin Betancourt Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 12:05 am
Will the Eggleston/Barnardini class be the first ever to graduate without beating Drexel? Let's hope the new coach next year makes sure that doesn't happen.
Andrew Todres Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 12:42 am
Tyler's injury has a severe impact on Penn's ability to run an offense and score points. Whatever semblance of a perimeter game Penn has completely disintegrates with Tyler out of the lineup.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any of the games this season, so I'm not going to make any extensive comments here. But in my mind, the Quakers' fundamental problem right now is they don't have enough people with the ability to create their own shot and score consistently. When Penn was winning a few years ago, either Ibby or Zoller (or both) was good for a big scoring game, no questions asked. With these established scoring threats, other players like Grandieri could fly under the radar, get less attention from defenses, and add solid numbers as well.

Now, if you take Tyler out of the lineup, defenses can collapse the paint, which presumably is why someone like Jack can get held to 5-16 from the field.

Zack Rosen is a pure point guard; he shouldn't be expected to be the top scorer.

So who else can step up in the backcourt or on the wing and score consistently, or at the very least draw defenders? That's a question that Glen Miller and Penn will hopefully be able to answer in the coming weeks. But for the time being, I certainly do wish that Harrison Gaines, with another summer's worth of development, were still around... and given the terms on which he left, the onus is very much on Miller to find a solution. I for one hope he will, but that remains to be seen.
Friends of Jon Lubin Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Saw portions of the game on TCN

1) Felt like a Drexel home game. Very few Penn kids there. Not even the "local" kids bothered to show up.

2) RBC looked pretty lame from the shots I saw. About 45-50 kids jumping up and down. Pretty grim.

3) Chairbacks pretty empty on both sides. Memo to Bilsky - Your arena is empty and the alums are losing interest quickly. Unless your name is Rockwell or Dunning, you have been alienated by Bislky, Roth, and Ulhlhorn for quite some time. Their alumni relations efforts are terrible.

4) Is it me or does the new "P" at half-court look like it was coloured in by an eight grader?
Andrew Todres Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 10:54 am
FOJL --

The timing of the game was unfortunate -- most Penn kids likely tried to beat the Wednesday rush home for Thanksgiving by leaving after class Tuesday, or even Monday.

Hopefully the 0-4 start doesn't keep students away once they are more easily able to attend the games.
Ernie Nounou Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Andrew -

Thanks as always for your well stated observations. But respectfully, all too many "unfortunate" scheduling and other issues have happened, some of which you reported last year. That said, always a pleasure to read your comments.

BTW - Do issues appear different now that you are an alum, or is it too soon?

EN
Steve Becker Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 11:42 am
I stressed in a recent post (off the Delaware game) the problem of Penn's lacking anyone who can create a shot (other than Rosen, to some extent). And yes, I agree that Bernadini's absence hurts...

but Bernadini doesn't deserve to be evoked, given his incredible inconsistency (zero points against Villanova, a statline that's not erasable) as an excuse for this team's losses.

Note, as well, the continuing, sobering "transitive property" quality of these losses. Penn loses to Villanova by 40; Penn loses to Delaware; Delaware loses to Siena by 30. Penn loses to Penn State by 15, which then gets torched last week by a mid-caliber team.

Right now, Penn is playing at the level of a Division II school. They're not playing Division I quality basketball. This program has been reduced, in other words, to the level of a Division II caliber program. Wow...this is historical.

The team has the look, I'll say it again, of a high school "prep" team. Something like 15 of its 17 players are white? This is diversity? Basketball's still an urban game, yet 90% of the team is white? When did we become Brigham Young? Can someone tell me why, under Miller, Penn can no longer recruit (and/or retain) black kids?

And most of these guys are indistinguishable...6-6, 6-7'ish....white....decent athletes, not exactly stiffs...but none shoot really well, none are athletic enough to break down defenses...there is zero defensive presence...no one can block a shot.

I give Mike Howlett tremendous credit. This guy is beginning to distinguish himself as a tough motherf*er. He can rebound like a man. But other than Howlett and Rosen, who can clearly play and deserves better, no one on this team strikes me as having much meaningful upside at all.

I hope I am wrong. But I don't think I am.

Miller simply has to get better talent. I disagree with those who condemn his coaching. I think he can coach. His teams play hard. They're fundamentally sound. The problem is, the personnel just can't get it done.

Regarding the DREXEL crowd, FOJL is right. Last year, too, the Drexel fans absolutely blew the Penn fans out of the gym. That game, incidentally, was more competitive than last night's.

It's getting worse, in other words, not better.
Ernie Nounou Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Steve -

Kindly get off the fence and tell us what you really think. All kidding aside, your posts have been brutally on the mark, and thanks for making them.

EN
Steve Becker Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Ernie, I genuinely appreciate your recognition. Thanks so much. And have a great Thanksgiving!

Steve
Jeremy Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Steve, you hit the nail on the head, especially with respect to the kinds of players that have been recruited. That looks to change next year, but hopefully that's too little too late for the coach.

Friends of Jon Lubin, as a local kid who would be one of 10 students going to games during winter break, the Penn student turnout last night was MUCH more than I expected to see for a game on the Tuesday of Thanksgiving. Support through the first two games has been very good and way ahead of what it should be for a team this bad, but I have a feeling we have peaked and it will only get worse from here. Why would anyone want to come out and watch this team play Ivy League games once they've been eliminated from contention?? We went 1-6 last year at home in a pitiful league, so there's only one way the attendance is going to go. It's a shame too because each year they work to get the Freshman involved and excited and then halfway through the year the teams' play will have lost them all and it will be onto the Freshman class next year. A true shame how far we have fallen.
Dennis Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Given the (much deserved) pessimism in these comments and the lag time until the next game, I'm going to inject some upbeat thoughts.

1. The consecutive losses to Delaware and Drexel aren't unprecedented. In fact, the 2002-2003 Quakers -- with a starting five of Toole, Begley, Schiffner, Koko, and Ugonna -- lost to Drexel by 9 and Delaware by 1 in the 2nd and 3rd games of the season, respectively. By no means am I comparing this year's team to the '02-'03 team; I just found this tidbit worth mentioning.

2. Zach Rosen is the real deal. By the time he graduates, he will be an absolute star. He already averages 5+ assists per game, which is remarkable given: 1) he gets no easy assists on entry passes into the paint (because, well, we've got no inside presence); and 2) he gets few assists on perimeter shots (because, well, we've got no shooters). And, as Steve mentioned in an earlier post, many of his passes are too good, which robs him of even more assists. (During the Drexel game, I remember two no-look passes to wide-open players clanking off their hands.) Could you imagine his numbers if he ran the point for Jaaber, Grandieri, Zoller, and Danley? Also, for those who criticize Rosen's jumper, just give him time -- both Jaaber and Zoller became much better shooters in the 2nd half of their careers, and I expect Rosen to enjoy a similar progression.

3. I couldn't agree more with Steve; Howlett is a beast. Yes, his contested shot with 25 seconds left on the shot-clock and Penn leading by 2 with 55 seconds left in the Delaware game was boneheaded. But, from a rebounding and intensity standpoint, I love everything about him, even the screams after tough rebounds. We've needed an in-your-face guy like him for a while. I've gone from lukewarm (at best) to very excited about his potential, and I think anyone who's seen him play this season would agree.

4. I think Smith also has a lot to offer this team. It's easy to forget that he played a full season as a freshman, one-half of one game as a sophomore, and nothing more. After two years off, it's going to take some time for him to find his rhythm.

5. With Cornell losing its big guns next year, Penn's core of Rosen, Smith (assuming he's eligible), Bernardi, Eggelston, and Howlett seems promising. I'd take my chance with these guys and hope that one of the younger players (Sullivan, perhaps) or recruits can shoot it. Finding a true shooter, though, is imperative. I had the pleasure of watching Schniffer and Begley for three of my four undergraduate years, and I can't overstate the importance of their three-point shooting in building (and sustaining) leads, as well as chipping into other teams' leads.
Rodney Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I hate to disagree with anything Steve Becker says because Steve is right almost all of the time. But I have to disagree with some of your mostly on-target analysis.

Steve, I know you are just being your usual brutally frank self, but bringing up the hue of the players clouds the discussion and some could misrepresent what you really mean. For example, while the next class of recruits will add to 'team diversity' - and also appear to be more talented as well - it doesn't necessarily mean that the team is headed in the right direction.

And I also take more exception to the coaching than Steve does. First, doesn't the coach recruit the players? Either the players are incapable of running the coach's game plan or the game plan is wrong. Pick one. Next up, the game plans haven't been well thought out, either on defense or offense. We get lit up by the star player of the opposing team every game and we go through stretches of brutal offense every game. Maybe it is partly that the players do not possess enough skill or athleticism, but it seems more than that.

And player rotation is, to put it gently, bizarre. The team blows up at the end of each game because Miller only trust 5 or 6 of them. How is it possible to compose a roster of 17 players and have so few you trust that only 6 ever play more than 10 minutes? Frankly I have no idea if half the team is good enough because they don't ever play.

I do agree with everything else you said.

I will always support Penn basketball and its players. I am just having a hard time with my digestion after every game. I'm sure it will eventually get better. I feel for fans like Ari and Jeremy who have yet to see a quality Penn basketball team. I promise you will some day.
Rodney Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Hello Dennis,

Thank you for your comments.

I used to own a pair of rose-colored glasses. I recently traded them in for clear ones. I see much better now.
Steve Becker Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Dennis and Rodney, both great posts. Rodney, I take your feedback seriously. You make excellent points. I always think about what you and others say.

I realize that my pointing out how "white" the team's makeup is this year (and how white the team seems to have gotten, progressively, under Miller)--I appreciate how inflammatory that can sound. Maybe I'm flat-out wrong to note that.

But it's just that, on a visceral level, it's begun to irk me to see this lily-white team come trotting out on the floor every night. This is an urban setting, an urban sport...I suppose I'm just conveying what crosses my mind, more and more, at these games: where have all Penn's black players gone?

Dennis, you also make great points. Your analysis across the board is spot-on. I am, though, not going to sell easily on Darren Smith. I respect what he's gone through, I admire his perseverance. I'm glad he's healthy again. Yes, he may still be getting the feel for the game back. But here's my take on him: He doesn't, fundamentally, have a good feel for the game. He's got suspect hands, no explosivenes, moves poorly laterally, and has limited court vision, which makes him a pedestrian passer.

Sure, it's easy to be tempted by his ability to hit open three's, but as I say, one can't expect opposing teams to let him do the only thing he's able to do (ie, hit open three's).

We agree on Howlett and Rosen. Howlett's screaming, like you say, is great. It's great because it's totally genuine and well-earned; he flat-out goes after boards ferociously. And so, like you, I'm very intrigued with Howlett's development.

And yes...I saw those passes Rosen threw that you allude to. No-look, thread the defense passes that, as you aptly pointed out, guys like Jaaber, Zoller and a few others in the recent past would have converted into buckets (and assists for Rosen).

So, thanks guys...great stuff.
Friends of Jon Lubin Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Thank you for everyone to starting to look thru the newly-found set of glasses.

Please pass along your concerns to Amy Guttman that Penn Basketball has fallen, with plenty of blame to be shared. The most guilty suspect is Bilsky for creating a reign of terror around the program, and by alienating his vast alumni base, now that he has slapped the names DUNNING and ROCKWELL everywhere. If you are not a DUNNING, or a ROCKWELL, you are a worthless useless alum.
Kishin Tuches Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Enough already of the talk of this need for "diversity" on this team. Talent is needed whatever the ethnicity. This is embarrassing and insulting to a world-class university. Do you miss Cameron Lewis at center? Do you think Malcolm should get more playing time than Zack? Why don't we play Gordon? Must be because he has an Orthodox Jewish background.

Harvard's Jeremy Lin is one of the top players in the league. He's of Asian extraction. Surely, there are plenty of those on this campus.

So, let's talk basketball and not trivialize the sport by descending to the lowest common denominator.
Friends of Jon Lubin Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Regardless of skin colour - we are extremely unathletic, quite slow, and do resemble a High School team playing in rural Minnesota.
Rodney Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
FOJL - you have finally nailed it on the head!

Rural Minnesota, where all players are above average and play very hard. Indeed, a very apt analogy.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.
Kevin Betancourt Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Spot on FOJL. This club plays far below the calibre athletically of others I've seen at Penn and national mid-majors.

And I second the comments re: Rosen. If Miller could figure out some kind of 2 man offense or get someone (anyone) to play with Zack the team could be really effective.

Let's not forget the 02-03 team after losing to Drexel and Delaware beat Villanova handily on the road. Guess we won't be seeing that movie again.
Steve Becker Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Kishin, i beg your "pardon," literally. Take it easy, i wasn't trying to start a racial riot. I'm just saying what I see....suggesting, perhaps, a trend I chose to note?

Of course I'm interested in Penn acquiring better players and athletes. Every one of my recent posts has stressed, and analyzed, that point emphatically. I think I've been "talking basketball," unless I'm mistaken?

And Cameron Lewis? At this point, at the level the team's playing at now, he might be a coup.
Kishin Tuches Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
I hear you, Steve. Maybe we want the Quakers to win TOO much.

I guess the point that bothered me the most was the self-congratulatory tone of the "Minnesota" remark and its subsequent affirmation here.

I was just wondering if the Drexel students, who will be upset with their team's shabby performance at the end of this season, will decry the fact that their team looks like a bunch of kids from the South Bronx?

Let's get healthy, thereby improving shot selection and depth, and see where this season takes us. I, for one, am not ready to throw in the towel....yet.
Steve Becker Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Gotcha, Kishin. You an alum?

"I was just wondering if the Drexel students, who will be upset with their team’s shabby performance at the end of this season, will decry the fact that their team looks like a bunch of kids from the South Bronx?"

That's good, man. Trechantly expressed.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Lars Olafssen Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
As a proud rural Minnesotan, I take offense to the comparison between our wonderful basketball players and those on the University of Pennsylvania team.
Friends of Jon Lubin Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
I still take umbrage to the Todres remarks how everyone is "rushing home" for the Holidays.

Our school has plenty of kids who hail from Philadelphia, NYC, LI, Westchester/Rockland, North Jersey, South Jersey, Baltimore/Washington.

Does every single one feel compelled to "rush home" on that Tuesday?

Not everyone lives in rural Minnesota.

FOJL
steve becker Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Kishin, for the record, i meant, of course, "trenchantly" expressed.

FOJL, Ernie, Rodney, Kishin and others...seriously, have a great Thanksgiving!
Kishin Tuches Says:
November 25th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Hey, Steve. I'm a parent of two alums. I believe you meant "treNchantly." Glad you don't find my remarks coruscatingly atavistic or overly sententious.
steve becker Says:
November 26th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
no, Kishin....your intelligence is obvious, but not flaunted.
Rodney Says:
November 26th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Welcome to the Buzz, Kishin.

For those of you undergrads who aren't already in the know, the Tucheses are rather large at Penn, and some have said that Kishin Tuches can really get things done over at Weightman.

Please send my best regards to your daughter Paininda.
Jeremy Says:
December 1st, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Funny that Bruiser Flint agrees with those of us who *gasp* suggested that Penn at one time had better athletes. When cpmparing Cornell now vs Penn under Dunphy he said:

"Penn always had two or three guys who athletically were just - and that's why they dominated. They don't have an Archibong or an Onyekwe, or a Michael Jordan. They're a good team, but athletically, Penn was just a little bit better."
Steve Becker Says:
December 1st, 2009 at 3:06 pm
I'm not so sure that the quality of athlete over-all has diminished. Maybe, but maybe not.

Until recently, as Flint points out, Penn's always had two or three guys who were good to very-good basketball players, not just solid athletes. Mark Zoller was a much better basketball player than he was an athlete, whereas guys like Kevin Egee (and the roster is filled with guys like Egee) are better athletes than they are basketball players.

I don't think Miller's recruiting athletic stiffs by any means. On the other hand, he's recruiting a homogenously mediocre group of basketball players.

Even looking back at the Final Four team in '82, a guy like Matt White was an utterly undistinguished athlete, no better than any of the bigger guys on recent Penn squads. Matt White couldn't rebound with a tenth of the toughness of a Mike Howlett. Boonie Salters was a much better basketball player than athlete. Willis was the most athletic guy on the team and he could also play basketball; whereas Tony Price and Tim Smith were very good athletes but even better players.

I think there's a point I'm trying to make here?

M. Hoops vs. Drexel live blog

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M. Hoops vs. Drexel live blog

29 Responses to “M. Hoops vs. Drexel live blog”

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