Two games down for M. Hoops, and two losses to BCS teams. But as my colleagues Neil Fanaroff and Ari Seifter asked, how much can we learn from these two defeats about the 2009-10 men's basketball team? Neil believes, not much, since this is way to soon to make snap judgments about the team. Ari believes we can make broader statements about the team's ability to compete with top-flight teams.
Not to cop out, but they're both right.
Clearly this Penn team, especially this early in the season, isn't suited to compete with a top 5 team like Villanova. And there's a good chance the Quakers' trip to Cameron Indoor Stadium will result in an equally lopsided loss to Duke. But that doesn't mean that Penn will be irrelevant against better competition forever. Ivy teams in general aren't irrelevant nationally. Cornell beat Alabama this weekend. Harvard beat Holy Cross and Williams and Mary, two better mid-majors. Even Brown -- which was last in the Ivies last year -- was semi-competitive agains Virginia Tech. Penn has awhile to go before they can be as successful as Cornell is right now, but that doesn't mean they'll go winless in the Big 5 from now until they quit out of desperation.
On the other hand, Neil's right that losing to Penn State and Villanova tells us very little about Penn's Ivy chances. The fact of the matter is this season will be a success or failure depending on Penn's Ivy play. If Penn goes 4-10 in non-conference play like it did last year, people will surely be up in arms, calling for Glen Miller's head. But then if the team were to somehow go 10-4 in League play, perhaps beat Cornell at the Palestra, go at least 1-1 versus Princeton and not lose to Dartmouth -- twice. I'm not saying they necessarily would do that. And Tyler Bernardini's injury could affect them significantly. But frankly it's too early to tell if they can compete with teams more equal to their caliber.
I realize some of you already posted your thoughts on Ari's initial column. But feel free to do so again here on The Buzz, especially your thoughts on this year's team.
Also, read after the jump for two more Hoops items
First, last night Fran Dunphy took his Temple Owls down to Washington, D.C., and almost defeated John Thompson III's Georgetown Hoyas, losing by one point, 46-45. Why do I bring this up? Just read the lede of this Mike Wise column for the Washington Post. Not only does it bring back memories of the Penn-Princeton rivalry, but it also relates to Ari's point about Ivy League schools recruiting top level talent (or the inability to recruit such players).
Secondly, quick anecdote about Villanova. For those that don't know, I'm also a member of the Penn Band and was at the Villanova game Monday with the Band. Before the beginning of every game our director receives a "game script" from the host school's athletic department that tells us when we're playing during timeouts and stoppages of play. The timeouts were labeled, with most of them relating to the game clock. But one timeout listed in the second half read, I kid you not: "When Villanova scores 95 points." Again, we were given this before the game started. So clearly the Villanova Athletic Department believed the Wildcats would wipe the floor with the Quakers, even though Villanova had only once ever broken 95 against Penn.
Tags: basketball, Big 5, fran dunphy, Penn State, princeton, temple, villanova
An RSS feed of The Buzz is available
November 18th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
As a loyal Quaker fan it kills me to say this, but I think we should all root for Cornell basketball this year. They have a potential top 25 team and it very well could be the last hurrah for Ivy basketball for a long, long time. Recruiting the best players is getting tougher, money is tight everywhere, more teams are bending the rules and even if Penn eventually turns it around in the next few years (they do have a good recruiting class for 2010 but still no big man) they will most likely will never get the group of players needed to compete against Villanova and the like. What the Big Red has this year is now a rare occurrence for our league to remain relevant in major college sports. It used to be the norm, at least with Penn and Princeton, but not anymore
I have loved Quaker basketball from the minute I stepped on campus. I was a freshman in 1979 and went to Salt Lake City with the final four team. I then watched in disappointment as Magic Johnson and Greg Kelser dismantled our guys. I saw the upset of Villanova in 1982 but things are different now and it makes me, and I know most of you, very sad.
Also, I don't know much about Coach Miller and I'm as frustrated as everyone else about all the embarrassing losses, but he did take a good team to the NCAA's in his first year and almost beat a far superior team in Texas A&M. You cannot assume that just because he was given a great team, he could fill out the line up card a la Joe Torre and win. In 1982 when Craig Littlepage took over as coach, he had a Penn team absolutely loaded with senior talent. They were far and away the best team in the league and projected to go deep in the tournament. Besides the Villanova win, they all underachieved and lost the league championship to Craig Robinson (Obama's future Brother in law) and Princeton. (Littlepage lasted a few more years without a championship and then left for Rutgers.) Miller simply doesn't have the talent now, but I do believe (for whatever that's worth) he knows what he's doing.
Anyway, Cornell is stacked and no matter who wins in future years, it may never be this good again for the league.
KR
C'82
November 19th, 2009 at 9:44 am
ZK: "But then if the team were to somehow go 10-4 in League play, perhaps beat Cornell at the Palestra, go at least 1-1 versus Princeton and not lose to Dartmouth — twice..."
EN: "If we had ham, we would have ham and eggs, if we had eggs!"
Sorry, Zach.
EN
November 19th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
kr, very interesting post...very interesting, intelligent perspective.
Regarding Zach's column...this all sounds eerily familiar--that is, the "don't push the alarm button yet" argument.
These opening two losses are simply terrible. Perhaps the Penn State loss would have been digestible had Penn gone out and lost, as I suggested in an earlier post, to Villanova by 15? But to open the season and lose by 15, then follow that weak effort up with a 40-pt loss, at this stage of the current squad's composition and experience...let's stop kidding ourselves, Zach and staff...this is a very bad sign.
Sure, we can keep "dumbing down" our expectations of this program until, I suppose, we no longer expect them to compete?
This is Miller's crew now. These guys have logged many minutes together. I said this last season, and off these first two games, it appears that what I said may still pertain: it is the "lack of development" of this team that most concerns. What you wanted to see coming out of the chute this year, after last season's disappointment, was a clearly improved team...a clearly more competitive team. A team, and pardon the cliche, that was ready to "make a statement."
Off the first two games, the team has made a statement. Here it is: "Don't expect anything different from us. Don't expect us to be more competitive than we've been. Don't expect to see concrete development. And most certainly, don't raise your expectations of us. If anything, lower them."
C'mon "the Buzz" staff. Enough of the sugar-coating and false sanguininity. Is the season over? Of course not. Do we hope for good and better things? Of course we do. Will we be supporting these guys? Of course we will.
But is there valid reason, at this moment in time, to feel extremely discouraged, if not pessimistic? Of course there is.
Just how far down are we going to "dumb down" our expectations of this team/program before we may as well stop expecting them to compete?
November 19th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
sorry for last sentence of above post...migrated down before I caught it...here's the post as was meant to be:
kr, very interesting post…very interesting, intelligent perspective.
Regarding Zach’s column…this all sounds eerily familiar–that is, the “don’t push the alarm button yet” argument.
These opening two losses are simply terrible. Perhaps the Penn State loss would have been digestible had Penn gone out and lost, as I suggested in an earlier post, to Villanova by 15? But to open the season and lose by 15, then follow that weak effort up with a 40-pt loss, at this stage of the current squad’s composition and experience…let’s stop kidding ourselves, Zach and staff…this is a very bad sign.
Sure, we can keep “dumbing down” our expectations of this program until, I suppose, we no longer expect them to compete?
This is Miller’s crew now. These guys have logged many minutes together. I said this last season, and off these first two games, it appears that what I said may still pertain: it is the “lack of development” of this team that most concerns. What you wanted to see coming out of the chute this year, after last season’s disappointment, was a clearly improved team…a clearly more competitive team. A team, and pardon the cliche, that was ready to “make a statement.”
Off the first two games, the team has made a statement. Here it is: “Don’t expect anything different from us. Don’t expect us to be more competitive than we’ve been. Don’t expect to see concrete development. And most certainly, don’t raise your expectations of us. If anything, lower them.”
C’mon “the Buzz” staff. Enough of the sugar-coating and false sanguininity. Is the season over? Of course not. Do we hope for good and better things? Of course we do. Will we be supporting these guys? Of course we will.
But is there valid reason, at this moment in time, to feel extremely discouraged, if not pessimistic? Of course there is.
November 19th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Steve -
ernie@catalyticgroup.com
EN
November 19th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Zach: Excellent contribution and perspective. No Gensler-esque slobbering act from you.
Well done, amigo
FOJL
November 20th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Penn needs a decisive win against Delaware, not a squeaker. A win by at least 10, preferably 15-20, for it to mean anything at all. They lose to Villanova by 38, which then beats George Mason (not exactly a powerhouse) by 1. You do the math.
I'd also propose to "the Buzz's" staff a discussion with Miller regarding his expectations (assuming he has any?) of his newest batch of recruits, especially regarding what they might contribute this year?
I assume he's had by now a chance to evaluate them, to see what he's got? Who's got what "upside?" How bout it, Buzz-ers?
November 20th, 2009 at 3:58 am
Steve-
I would love to discuss the recruiting class with Coach Miller, and have requested to do so more than once. Unfortunately he can't talk about the recruits yet because of NCAA rules.
November 20th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Noah -
I believe Steve's talking about the current Freshman.
EN
November 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I agree with everything Steve is saying.
I recall a comment from our friend JGH that as long as football and basketball do well all else will be forgotten. I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but for argument's sake let's say it is correct. Frankly for many alums the more correct statement may be if the basketball team delivers all else will be forgotten.
JGH neglected to mention what the consequences would be if the basketball team doesn't deliver.
November 20th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Noah, Ernie is correct...I was referring to the current batch of freshmen.
Thanks Ernie...and Rodney.
Steve
P.S. Ernie, I'm going to check out what you sent me. Read the contents of the email. Wow...you're some dude.
November 20th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Let's look at it this way: Penn is 0-2 against the spread so far. And they weren't even within shouting distance of the spread against Nova. If the spread is right, every team should be around .500 and Vegas is rarely wrong.
Last year they won exactly one home game in the Ivy League and all we heard about from the Miller sympathizers was injuries and letting the guy get his recruits in place. OK, done. Welcome to the season of no excuses. The expectations at this point have to be a) winning record overall b) at least 11 wins in the Ivy and contending for the title c) at least one win against Cornell d) zero losses by 30+ and e) no more than 2 games under .500 ATS.
Not exactly clamoring for a national championship here. In fact, judged against the average of the last 20 years of Penn basketball these would be fairly low expectations. If Miller can't handle this, get out. Go find a job at an irrelevant program that won't care. But supporters of the program sure as hell will not sit idly by while Miller turns Penn into an irrelevant program that doesn't care.
November 20th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Kevin -
Couldn't have said it better; but doesn't the buck stop a bit higher?
EN
November 20th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Kevin nailed it. There are no more excuses from the aplologists.
I am sick and tired about how "we played hard"
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:29 pm
So to update, Penn now: a) is 0-3 against the spread, b) has blown an 18-point lead in a game, c) has lost to a bad team at home because Glen Miller hasn't the foggiest idea how to manage a game in the last 4 minutes.
I can only put blame on players for three things last night: Rosen's two careless fouls in succession late in the second half that gave him four; Washington's two careless fouls against Carter in OT that sent him to the line and Howlett's boneheaded shot with 25 seconds on the shot clock when they were trying to run out the clock in regulation. Poor decisions all, but certainly not the reason Penn lost. The team absolutely played well enough to win that game (and cover) until Miller bungled it so badly down the stretch.
On the plus side, the new coach next year will have a lot of talent to work with, provided he knows how to do anything with it.